Testaments to the Boom Times to Come (Posts tagged thinkin about cannibalism)

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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
lunchtop

re: Will & morality though

lunchtop

The only consistent quality about Will Graham is that he’s never consistent.  He’s ever-shifting and in a constant dialogue with himself about his actions and decisions; he doesn’t make decisions so much as they happen to him; and he’s more than once retroactively rewritten a decision that happened to him as a decision he made – essentially you cannot pin the man down.

And isn’t that the way we like him ^^;

wellntruly

Yes.

Yes and — his conception of his innermost ~being~ is a river, and you know what they say: you can’t step in the same river twice.

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Anonymous asked:

Since discussion about dark!Will just recently cropped up, can you talk about what you mean by Monster Husbands vs Murder Husbands? And how it relates to the post-S3 interpretation that Will embraces the killer cannibal lifestyle? (Tbh, I don't think being married to the devil means you have to become one just like him. I've always seen Will as an angry angel capable of smiting, Hannibal wanting him to smite more, but his core "goodness" never quite changes).

G l a d l y, my dear!! (And as you’ve probably gathered from my blog, we feel quite similarly!)

First up, I’m just gonna preemptively cred @confusedkayt right at the top here, as I’m pretty certain my answer to this will be sourced heavily from the on-going conversation/creys on this and other topics we’ve been having for the past, oh, month? Basically, something that matters a whooole lot to Kayt & myself (if I can presume to speak for the both of us based on…..so many words exchanged, and how many of them are stuff like “OMG SAME”) is reconciling our resounding No to Question 4 of @genufa‘s recent dark!Will questionnaire with the realities of how to actually get that to happen.

Anyway, my answers to those Qs, as that can useful for discussions like this:

  • Do I enjoy dark!Will and want to see Will as dark!Will: Y/N
    No
  • Do I think Will is (or would be) happier/better/more evolved as dark!Will: Y/N
    No
  • Do I think Will actually became dark!Will in canon, i.e. at least some of the acts of violence and manipulation he committed through the series put him morally “beyond the pale,” and he likes it that way: Y/N
    No, at length
  • Do I think it’s necessary for Will to be dark!Will in order for Hannigram to be endgame: Y/N
    No, cue the Kaytntruly Discussions (which actually started thanks to the previous No, wow this is tidy)
  • Given my answers to the above, do I feel that Hannibal’s actions toward Will throughout the series are justified from a moral, philosophical, or aesthetic standpoint: Y/N
    No, but. (also don’t press me on aesthetic bc I’ll probably end up swinging Yes, as that feels like justification for the tv show itself existing)
  • Am I judging any of the above based on the same standards I’d apply to real people in real life: Y/N
    Yes I am #problematic

Now, the reason my answers are No to so many of these is not because I think Will is some sort of cinnamon roll (I very do not), but because I don’t think he is/would be the slay-happy Murder Husband of fandom who sprung into being after S3. I should also mention that I consider the Slay-Happy Murder Husband Of Fandom to be a different creature than, say, the occasional Bitchy Ice Prince Will (to lift a descriptor from one of after-the-ellipsis’ recent anons), who would be a canon Will varietal I get a vicious thrill out of in a way I project suspect is similar to how Will feels in those moments. Will is complicated. This I don’t have to suspect. Will is many, he contains multitudes. Actually a big reason why I balk at Murder Husband Dark!Will is how he so often feels like a simpler version of the messy, complicated Will I loved from the show. Dark!Will has a more limited range of notes, and if we know anything about Hannibal, the man likes complexity in his music.

But I’m getting ahead of myself a bit. (This topic is like my pettest of pets, so bear with me!)

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hands

wellntruly

@confusedkayt: “the kind of… amateur-hour mounting efforts in the Natural History museum cannot possibly have been the real thrill of that experience.”

Kayt is right, because it was this. Try to tell me it wasn’t, any of you. You cannot. Do you know why? Because the show lingers lovingly over this sequence and all its aching meaning, and despite a noted interest in filming preposterously visceral body horror all of the time, just brushes past said amateur-hour mounting efforts between scenes. The most ~important part~ of the Randall Experience was the hand-tending, Q.E.D.

I will make the tenderness matter most of all and I will get the show to back me up A Blog By Tarra Hannibal thinkin about cannibalism
merchantfan

Hannibal Rewatch: 2x02

wellntruly

Season 2, Episode 2: “Sakizuke”

**Warning: rewatch blogging, written with knowledge of the full series

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Bedelia watching Hannibal mess with Will must’ve been like walking in on your cat with a mouse. You’re like “Put that down” and the cat just shakes the mouse some more and looks at you happily. You realize that the mouse will probably die either way at this point and it’s not like you want mice *in* your house, so you just sigh and say “you jerk”. 

wellntruly

Well, I don’t know! I actually got the feeling that Bedelia was doing a lot more for Will & herself in this episode than just letting our favorite murder cat play with his food. As team Bedelia du Maurier Defense Squad AND team Will Graham Defense Squad, that scene with the two of them in the BSHCI basically felt like a gift to me personally, and it had a lot to do with how they were connecting with each other as people Playing Opposite Hannibal Lecter.

For myself, I saw Bedelia’s decision to go see this Will Graham she’s heard so much about as a 3-part move. One part is a move against Hannibal: she has politely requested that he not follow her after she leaves, but it would be helpful if there was plenty back here to draw his attention. So she activates Will against Hannibal by affirming his judgments and bolstering his faith in himself/his ability to Fight, which brings us to….

Part 2: A move for Will. Can you even fathom how much Will needed to hear the things Bedelia told him here? HUGELY. HUGELY HUGE. She’s the first person to not (unwittingly) aid & abet Hannibal’s gaslighting, because actually (actually!!), everyone around Will has essentially been repeating to him “no one happened to you; you happened.” And then Bedelia arrives to assure him that yes, he IS a product of his social environment, and specifically a harmful form of attention from one Hannibal Lecter. And not only does she believe him, she believes in him. She’s pulling from personal experience: “The traumatized are unpredictable because we know we can survive.” WE.

Part 3: A move for herself. Bedelia is curious about Will Graham, both as he relates to Hannibal and for how he may relate to herself. And when she at last meets Will, she says she understands him better than she thought. As we know now, Hannibal had also stage-managed Bedelia into circumstances designed to make her tap into instincts she’d rather have kept down (and will do so again, it’s a past-time with him). Seeing how Will responds to a ~Hannibal Situation~ teaches her something about how she responds, and that’s valuable.

In the end, I think I love this interaction so much because of how surely it interweaves so many things I love about Bedelia: her curiosity about others & herself, her therapist’s compassionate problem-solving, and her cool thoughtful steps in her chess-dance with Hannibal.

(Also: I adore so much that their first scene is Bedelia paying a weird courtesy call to Will before she leaves, and their last scene is Will paying a weird courtesy call to Bedelia before he leaves, god it’s GREAT it’s so great.)

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Hannibal Rewatch: 2x02

Season 2, Episode 2: “Sakizuke”

**Warning: rewatch blogging, written with knowledge of the full series

I don’t think this is exactly *interesting* or what have you, more just a result of rewatching a television season about a year after the fact, but going into S2, I did not have a solid idea in my head of what happened in the first two episodes. I knew ep. 3 was the trial, I had that on lock, but if you’d asked me to place specific events I recalled from before the trial, I would have struggled. It’s probably a side effect of the case being strung between the the two episodes as well, and speaking of the case and also the word strung….

LIVE REACTS

Y’know that kind of teeth-baring that’s not a Hanners snarl but instead a sort of AFFRONTED REVULSION? So that’s me trying to watch this cold open. Again, NO STILLS, NO SORRY. Running into the corn field though, gotta say that’s such a good horror gesture. “Let me be a child of the corn anything but thiiiss” - that poor, poor guy with the nice skin

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I like where Hannibal & Alana are standing on their squares. I like that Will’s cage is centered on the line between them, too. I like I like. I think more than in S1, S2 does visual puns with patterns and symmetry that really remind you that this show is by the same man who made Pushing Daisies.

Will: “I’ve lost the plot. I’m the unreliable narrator of my own story.” Well actually deer one, Hannibal is unreliably narrating your story for you. Unless you’ve become like, the uncooperative second-person lead of an Italo Calvino novel or something. Actually that might be a decent analogy, but I can’t quite tell because trying to actually figure out what I mean by that feels like looking at an M.C. Escher drawing.

Will says he’s afraid twice in one line, and that must depress Hannibal, as he wanted Will to get better at managing his fear and he’s just made it worse. Tough rocks, Lecter.

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confusedkayt

Here’s another question

genufa

Which no one seems ever to put forth: if Will always had a conflicted attraction toward violence and murder (sure), and if that means he was always a potential killer (sure, whatever), could Hannibal have convinced him to stop worrying and start enjoying murderation w/ Hannibal at his side without, like, killing people he loved and shoving an ear down his throat and sending him to hospital and jail and all that jazz?

‘Cos, imagine, if I were Freddie Lounds in a post-S3 world and I had somehow managed to set up this exclusive Skype with Hannibal Lecter ON THE RUN and toward the end of the interview I was like, real talk Dr. Lecter, if you had it all to do over again would you have done anything differently? I kind of feel like Hannibal would allow that he MIGHT have done SOME things differently, in retrospect, knowing what he does now. And that might not have ruined what he has with Will (whatever that is, if you’re optimistic).

What I’m saying is, Hannibal had a goal in mind, or a few goals in mind.  That doesn’t mean what he executed in reality was a failproof #nailedit plan where every action advanced dark!Will’s development or their relationship or whatever. I’m not saying this to prove a point, just that I don’t believe in Xanatos chessmaster!Hannibal so there’s a chunk of logic that doesn’t follow, and maybe that actually opens up avenues of character speculation when you take a step back.

confusedkayt

This is a super-interesting question!  I was jawing something related over with @wellntruly recently, to wit:  a huge driver of the development of their relationship was Will trying to conceive of and act as Barbie Dress Up Murder Husband in the back half of S2.  The Will that really flipped Hannibal for a loop was, in large part, Will’s construct of what Hannibal might like, the successful creation of something to project on based in part but certainly not in whole on the raw personality materials available.

But Hannibal was also outright fascinated with Original Flavor Will in S1.  I don’t think Hannibal really had a paradigm for that; his MO was a sort of… forcible moulding of Promising Candidates (cf Randall Tier, the Zachary Quinto guy) that presupposed that Hannibal’s psychic driving was going to take folks to their most interesting (and, not coincidentally, murderous) place.

To my eyes, Digestivo-forward Hannibal had come to the conclusion that Will was more interesting when driving his own psyche, and his more hands-off approach (which, yes, was partially necessitated by being in prison, but then there’s how he ENDED UP in prison).  I wonder if part of that was that, having had some time to reflect, Hannibal was able to identify the most dazzling moments from the back-half of Season 2 as times when Will’s Murder Barbie performance slipped.  The real righteous rage aimed at Clark Ingram, for instance.   I’m not sure that Randall Tier’s death would have played out so differently if Will had not been mid-entrapment (with the notable exception of the visualization of beating Hannibal specifically - maybe Season 1 Will would have seen a ravenstag, or something else slithering symbolically around in the murky soup of his psyche).  I will grant the aftermath would not be the same, but the kind of… amateur-hour mounting efforts in the Natural History museum cannot possibly have been the real thrill of that experience.  

And then there’s the heavy losses Hannibal has sustained along the way.  I couldn’t agree more that Hannibal is not a chessmaster, especially when Will Graham, Agent of Chaos, is in the picture.  His “plans” consist more of keeping a lot of resources in his back pocket and deploying them impressionistically as needed in response to outside circumstances (what @wellntruly calls Fate and Hannerstance).  I don’t doubt that he’s spent some time and equations thinking on how he could’ve used different tools, made slightly different moves, in ways that did not require him to abandon his longstanding identity, to spend three years in a very boring prison, to suffer the loss of Will and his attention again and again and again.

The language is kind of forced forward by the Red Dragon, and to a lesser extent Jack, but I got the sense that Hannibal had come to appreciate Will as a dispenser of specifically violence he is willing to call “righteous.”  Now he’s the Lamb of God, and Hannibal doesn’t seem too put out by that.  The slaughter of the Dragon is more of a change in method than a change in action or principle from taking potshots at Garrett Jacob Hobbs and Eldon Stammetts.  The aesthetics have changed.  Have the ethics?  I think Hannibal may gras that he might’ve got a lot more milage out of pushing the definition of “righteousness” than trying to remove it from the equation altogether.

I think I may be out on a bit of a limb here, but I see less an evolution from Regular Will to Dark Will, and more motion around him.  I see much more character change in Hannibal, from icy orderly planned killer to Murder Lion, Weilder of Hammer and Teeth and Maybe Impulsive Ice-Pick, from would-be puppet-master to would-be partner.  The rules of the game seem also to have changed.  Alana and Jack both hardened and became more willing to deploy very dark grey, murdery schemes of their own where they felt they were “justified.”  Where’s the moral distance between slaughtering Mason and slaughtering Randall Tier?  Between planning a murder-suicide for the Red Dragon and carrying it out?  A Will with fewer costs to count might be much more susceptible to Hannibal’s persuasion to stop berating himself for the delight when everyone around him slides toward allowing and condoning extreme acts of violence for the “special cases” that pop up right like clockwork.  Then again, a Will who delights might generate much less beautiful distress, and I’m not sure that’s what Hannibal really wants, in his heart of hearts.

ETA:  Given the other discussions swirling around, I don’t mean any of the above to suggest that I think Will is actually righteous, or that his violence (or Jack’s or Alana’s, or god no Hannibal’s) is ~justified,~ or even justifiable.  I am actually extra-interested in the show’s interrogation of the very concept of “good violence.”  A lot of my love for the show, and for Will especially, is grounded in how painful even textbook Justified Use of Force is, how ugly and complicit everyone is.  One of the major “pleasures” of the show, for me, was that feeling of gradually becoming a dirty - a worse person, somehow, for every judgment I made, for every ounce of sympathy I managed to muster up, for my stomach-deep desire for Those Two Crazy Kids To Make It Work when I couldn’t justify it as a Good Outcome.

wellntruly

Obviously I’m just gonna take up the fanciest fountain pen here to CO-SIGN THIS, with too much ink and flourishes and little hearts and stuff.

Actually, this probably ties in to another thing @confusedkayt and I have been talking about recently, which is how Hannibal got everything he ostensibly wanted in Italy — nice things, nice food, nice wine, nice beautiful Murder Wife who goes dancing with me and makes devastating jokes at the dinner table and lets me wash her hair and put her in murd-maybs sort of situations — and ultimately he’s just like “siiighhh, Bedelia I miss Will.” And I think Kayt is so right about “Digestivo” being a big turning point, because the Will Hannibal can’t bear to lose is not Will with combed hair talking about ~using his hands~, but Will in a flannel shirt in Wolf Trap telling him that he can’t be what he thinks Hannibal wants. But I think the only thing Hannibal even knows that he wants anymore is just Will. Hannibal wants to put the teacup back together and find he holds in his hands a world where Will can want him too. He doesn’t throw him right into another Murder Aptitude Test to try to prove Will wrong and him right, he just GOES TO PRISON to WAIT FOR HIM. He hopes, now, that he has actually changed Will as much as Will has changed him, and prays that he’ll come see him, bless Hannibal with the sight of him and the glory of his wrath. Really, Will has changed Hannibal to a man of faith, which is an impressive trick to pull on the Devil.

Anyway, I’m just really glad the whole world gets to appreciate the term Barbie Dress Up Murder Husband now.

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snarkcake-blog asked:

Ask 1: Saw what you did there with Bedelia/Chilton and I’m in! You sparked me to think about other Bedelia pairings. Bedelia and Abel Gideon - they both end up at and on Hannibal’s table, at least in part(s) in the first scene of Act One and final stinger of S3. They both speak the truth to Hannibal and both have had occasion to assume false identities (whether psychically driven or via a narcotic-assisted Acting! Thank You! alibi). What's up there.

Ooo interesting. They certainly seem to be the only ones Hannibal deliberately cajoles to partake of his people food, if I’m not mistaken? There’s a good chance that with Gideon, Hannibal is directly chasing the high of Bedelia’s performative human meat consumption, especially if we consider the timeline: Will is locked away from him in prison, and Bedelia herself has left him. Hannibal’s lonely and looking for diversions. Here’s one. But the thing is, Gideon can only ever be a weak substitute, right? I don’t think he offers anything to Hannibal outside the occasion of this morbid dinner theatre.

That’s actually part of why the (easy, yet unconfirmed) interpretation of the S3 stinger as an Abelling of Bedelia didn’t sit right with me. Hannibal has significantly more fondness and respect for her, and while dining with+on Gideon, he’s very clear that Gideon is only worthwhile as meat. “It’s only cannibalism if we’re equals,” etc. If Hannibal were to treat Bedelia the same, I would need a  R E A L L Y GOOD explanation.

snarkcake said: Bedelia musings part 2. Will vs Bedelia. FWIW, I always thought Will was quantifiably bitchy to Bedelia in Dolce and beyond because jealous. If she was a highly suitable substitute for Will Graham, then Will is not the special cinnamon roll he thought he was to Hannibal. Ouch. And her motive to lead Hannibal to the “I must eat Will because I love him” realization was 1) true to his deepest feelings / patterns and 2) a way to keep Hannibal preoccupied and keep her off the menu. Is that tracking?

Well that’s pretty much what I said, I think, re: Bedelia’s motivations for that angle in Italy! Although I’ve been brought around to a somewhat different place on that thanks to @confusedkayt‘s thoughts here, about how Bedelia may have been angling for Hannibal to just come to SOME sort of Actionable Plan, instead of flitting around in catacombs like a big confused bat. Frankly, what Bedelia is essentially asking Hannibal in that scene is whether he’s gonna deal with Love the same way he did when he was younger, and Hannibal’s just like YEAH I’M GONNA, bc he is an overdramatic child. It’s all his decision to not grow up, and her crime is once again observation, not participation.

And absolutely, me not seeing Bedelia as particularly jealous of Will certainly does not mean Will isn’t jealous of her, and I think all signs point to a big ol YES on that front. I’m not sure it’s exclusively due to not feeling special though, given that being special to Hannibal has mostly brought Will loads of misery & medical bills. I mean I think Will probably does feel jealous in a classic ex way like that, but he also has a much less irrational thing he can channel his hurt feelings into: the fact that Bedelia did the Bad Thing he wanted to do and didn’t even get punished for it. Will has a LOT of feelings about judgment, Reckoning, etc, and he talks about them with her, and how her evasion of marks twists in his heart, at considerable length. I guess I’d say that Will, especially during their scenes together during the Red Dragon arc, is jealous of Bedelia’s time with Hannibal beyond the veil, but more so that she escaped Hannibal, while he’s still carrying the wounds on more than his skin.

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boo-cool-robot asked:

Like. I have always thought that there should be more Chiyoh+Bedelia nonsense in this fandom, what with Bedelia's cool fascination and Chiyoh's stoic exasperation and also THEIR DOLCE ENCOUNTER WAS TOTALLY SUBTEXT-RIDDEN. Bedelia would be like "Cool, I found another one," and Chiyoh would be like "so you're the fucker who convinced them they should have the World's Worst Knife Fight"

Oh I am with you there SHOULD be, but like, would there be? Without the spinning chaos dervishes that are Hannibal and Will, throwing people up against each other with their turbulence, there’s not a whole lot of friction to hold two women this cool & smooth together.

But, I still crave it. @confusedkayt and I were actually talking about this recently! What was it that you were dreaming up, some sort of lecture-tour encounter?

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Hannibal Rewatch: 2x01

Season 2, Episode 1: “Kaiseki”

**Warning: rewatch blogging, written with knowledge of the full series

Maybe not the expected opening, but, I feel S2 is significantly funnier than S1? Like, generally more ridiculous, as well more actual punchlines. Although, also more beautiful, and more heartbreaking… idk, #PEAK TV. Season 2 is everything MORE, so I’m sure I’ll be over here finger-painting tears in the shape of words and everything, but that means we’re gonna need some lols, and when they are not already there I WILL ENDEAVOR TO BRING THEM.

Ok! So let’s see if I can turn Hannibal: Season Two into a TRAGIC ROMP. Hahahaha*crying* (oh great, we’re already in the money)

Live-Flailing:

Huh. I had completely forgotten that 2x01 begins with the Crawford v. Lecter Rumble of 2x13. Just, utterly out of my head. Which is crazy because this fight is so good. Bless you Laurence Fishburne & Mads Mikkelsen, bless you and your sheep and your family’s sheep.

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I feel like I’m looking at my family’s cat right before she sinks her teeth into my arm.

God imagine being Jack though, and Frasier Crane is leaping bodily over his kitchen counter to come snarling after the knife he just flung into your hand. I WOULD PEE.

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genufa

On Bedelia

wellntruly

I’ve been noticing a fair number of “???? what even is a Bedelia” sort of posts floating around lately, and sure, I have du Maurier thoughts. And actually, they are pretty different from a few of the ones I’m seeing? So I’ve decided now is the time for me to spool out some of my own feelings, for what they’re worth! (As always, views are simply mine not The Only Right Ones, this show is subjective and ambiguous as hell, you all are great.)

Ok, so, disclaimer: I love Bedelia. I also love Hannibal, and Will. All of them are strange and sneaky and hilarious. They’re great tv, the lot of ‘em. But Bedelia, it seems, is often put into a difficult place between Hannibal & Will. Difficult for fandom, I mean — it’s difficult in-world as well but Bedelia du Maurier can handle it (part of why I Loooove Heeeerr). I feel like there’s a VERY strong urge to set her up against Will, and a mild-to-moderate one to set her against Hannibal as well. This has always felt a little off to me though, because I actually saw Bedelia as oddly helpful, to both of them. I also feel like the ways she engages with them are more similar than they are different, which might actually be part of what leads to her final & only downfall, but we’ll get to that.

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genufa

I sometimes joke that I am Bedelia, though I never explain what I mean by that – basically, through all my teens and my twenties I was The Psychologist Friend. I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist and have no training in talk therapy whatsoever, but that’s like saying The Mom Friend is not actually her friends’ adoptive mom. I’m a writer, I like not only to observe but to model human nature, so I am a good listener when I’m learning something new, I don’t judge hastily, and as has recently been observed by Anon, I default to sounding reasonable. That seemed to be all it took, in many quarters. What it looked like from the outside – if anyone had bothered to look – might have been a morbid attraction to drama, as long as the mud didn’t touch my pant cuffs. I didn’t subjectively experience it as an attraction to drama (I’m not sure if Bedelia does), but it is a form of problem-solving that the implicated actors themselves cannot engage in, by definition. And problem solving is a savage pleasure.

(I have, among others, the specific life experience of having counselled people through the fallout of a betrayed friendship – awful, life-ruining stuff. And of coming to the realization, fairly early on, that this disaster had happened because one of the parties had been in love with the other, and said other had no idea. I didn’t tell them that: they wouldn’t have believed me and it wouldn’t have done any good. I talked them through to the point where they figured it out for themselves. Just like Bedelia did.)

wellntruly

I love this a lot. For meta bona fides and also I think because it gets to something about this show that I really treasure, but I don’t think I’ve talked much about: for something as grand/Grand Guignol as Hannibal is, we still see ourselves in some of these characters. Not that we’re all of us therapists or killers or heirs to a meat fortune, but that we recognize something in these heightened haute couture versions of our own struggles played out on a fantasy stage. AUs of our lives. Myths of our lives. They’re unreal, these human creatures on our screen, “not flesh, but light and air and color” etc, but they’re there by us, and for us. “Between the wolf in the tall grass and the wolf in the tall story there is a shimmering go-between,” as Nabokov once put it, a “prism.” Hannibal is one.

Anyway. Bedelia taking a savage pleasure in problem solving is just, sterling. Thank you for all this @genufa, you always have such a knack for letting beams of light come glancing through this shimmer show.

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